GraceConversation.org

by Jay Guin and Todd Deaver

Mac’s recent series of posts raises a host of questions that beg for answers. However, to go through each point and fully answer each one would severely test that patience of both our readers and our correspondents. And so, for now, we want to focus on a few points that are at the heart of our disagreement.

Therefore, our first two posts will address a number of inconsistencies we see in Mac’s posts, seeking to show the overall incoherence of the conservative position.

We will then address the question that this discussion began with: what do the passages of scripture that actually deal with falling away say?

Finally, having established certain of the fundamental Biblical principles that govern the doctrine of apostasy, we’ll address these key questions posed by Mac —

* What’s the difference between imperfect obedience and disobedience?

* Why teach a Christian God’s will on a subject when God’s grace will cover sins committed by a penitent Christian in unintentional ignorance of God’s will?

* How can salvation be by faith and not works, and yet works be the necessary consequence of salvation?

These are, of course, very serious questions, and they are questions directly answered by the scriptures.

We expect post the three parts of our response every-other day, that is, Monday (today), Wednesday, and then Friday.

Response to Jay’s and Todd’s Post Concerning Repentance

by Mac Deaver

Now let us consider Jay’s and Todd’s most recent post concerning repentance.

First, Jay and Todd find fault with the concept that (1) if there is no cessation of the sin, then there is no repentance of it, and that (2) repentance must be with regard to all sin in a person’s life. So, with regard to the first point, they are claiming that one can repent and continue in the sin of which he repents! That is certainly a redefinition of repentance that amounts to a cancellation of repentance and amounts to an unintentional attack on the process of actual conversion. I cannot repent of slapping you as I continue to slap you. If I can repent of slapping you while I continue the practice of slapping you, what could repentance possibly mean? The very concept of repentance evaporates before our eyes. The very concept of Jay and Todd leads to the continuation of practiced sin while one allegedly enters the church. This is not an extension of grace; it is a corruption of the church. It eliminates the possibility of conversion. It turns the church back into the world. Read the rest of this post »

Mac’s Answers to Jay’s and Todd’s Questions

by Mac Deaver

Now we turn to their new questions for us:

1. Yes, as for me, I will accept your summation as adequate for our discussion. On the summation itself Phil offers the following:

I object to the statement: “Not all doctrinal error damns.” I rather affirm, “All doctrinal error can lead to eternal damnation.” Any human teaching or opinion has the potential to lead people away from God (Col.2:6-8). Read the rest of this post »

Mac’s Response to Todd’s and Jay’s Summary

by Mac Deaver

Now we go to their summary:

They suggest that their “conservative friends” want it both ways but cannot have it both ways. They say that we admit that all Christians continue to sin and need grace and do, in fact, receive forgiveness. But we also say that some sins damn (are excluded from continual grace).Yet, we refuse to provide the list of all those that do damn the souls of saints. But, why should we have to provide an exhaustive list? I will provide an accurate and exhaustive list of those that damn right after they provide an accurate and exhaustive list of all of those that do not. The fact is, that even in those lists of sins which we have in the New Testament which God provided for us himself, not one list is exhaustive in the sense of thorough specific itemization. Each list is, however, exhaustive in principle, but not in the sense that every possible sin is mentioned specifically so that it is distinguished from every other possible sin (Gal.5:19-21; Rom.1:28-32; 1 Tim.1:8-11). If God himself never provided a complete list of sins, then why should I feel compelled to give a complete list of possible damning errors of which people can be guilty or could be guilty and the exact situations that would have to obtain in order for those sins in those particular circumstances to damn souls? Read the rest of this post »

Jay’s and Todd’s Answers to Mac’s Questions

by Mac Deaver

T  F 1. You say that the statement “Obedience to Christ is a type of work (Jno.6:29; Heb.5:8, 9; Eph.2:10) is not precise enough to answer either true or false. You claim that there is “sharp distinction” between (1) obedient acts done in order to receive salvation and (2) obedient acts done because one already has salvation. Yes, and we can agree if “salvation” refers to the salvation from past sins granted when one becomes a Christian! However, are you willing to claim that there is a sharp distinction between (1) obedience in order to become a Christian and (2) obedience in order to remain a faithful one? Where does that sharp distinction appear? When we say that we must continue to obey we are not saying that (1) one must continue to obey in order to contribute to his initial salvation or conversion (and you realize this), but we are saying that (2) one must continue to obey in order to maintain his righteous standing before God or to maintain his salvation in Christ. We are to “work out” our own salvation (Phil.2:12), and that is obedience (Heb.5:8, 9). The statement was precise enough. You failed to deal with because you would have to admit, as the Scriptures show, that there is work to be done to contribute to the “ongoingness” of salvation. Read the rest of this post »

by Jay Guin and Todd Deaver

Okay. We’ve answered Mac’s true/false questions as he’s requested. It’s only fair that Mac and Phil respond to a few questions that we have.

As to each of the following questions, we wish to hear from both Mac and Phil. We don’t need separate posts. It would be sufficient to say that you all have communicated and that you both agree or, if you disagree, to state the two answers. Read the rest of this post »

by Todd Deaver and Jay Guin

In his post, “The Two Questions on the Repentance Requirement,” Mac says, “Regarding Todd’s second question as to whether or not repentance always entails the cessation of the sin, let me say that it does.” He later adds that —

the continuation of the act without an interim [cessation] would indicate no repentance whatever. Cessation followed later by another attack would not in and of itself prove that repentance had not earlier occurred. We are not told how much time there must be between acts in order for repentance to have occurred. It is not a matter of time as such. It is a matter of attitude toward the deed. And, there are degrees of sorrow and regret. If the act never stops, however, no degree of repentance has been actualized.

Following this, Mac immediately turns to discuss conversion: Read the rest of this post »

by Todd Deaver and Jay Guin

Mac asked us a series of True/False questions in his most recent post. Here are our answers:

T  F  1. Obedience to Christ is a type of work (Jno. 6:29; Heb. 5:8, 9; Eph. 2:10).

This question is not precise enough to answer true or false, since biblically there is a sharp difference between (1) those acts of obedience we do to receive salvation and (2) other acts of obedience that we do because we’re saved. The second type of obedience is in the category of works (Eph. 2:10; 2 Tim. 2:21; Titus 3:1,8; etc.). The first type is specifically excluded from that category and is contrasted with it.

This is clear, for example, in Ephesians 2:8-10. The good works God has prepared for Christians to do (v. 10) are specifically ruled out as a means of receiving salvation (“not as a result of works,” v. 9), which instead comes only by grace through faith (v. 8). Faith, man’s response to the gospel that brings salvation, is contrasted with works, those other acts of obedience that God requires Christians to perform. Read the rest of this post »

On second thought, Todd and I have agreed with Mac that before we launch into a defense of our views (now posted), we need to respond to Mac’s most recent post. We agreed to answer his true/false questions, and it’s only fair that we go ahead and do that, as well as responding to his arguments on repentance.

Where we go from there depends on what Mac says in response.

by Jay Guin

Faith

It’s hard to imagine a premise more solidly established by the scriptures than the necessity of faith in Jesus as a requirement for salvation. Indeed, as we in the Churches of Christ have taught, going back to Walter Scott, the “plan of salvation” requires that the convert hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. We hear and confess what we are to believe: that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that Jesus is Lord. As all Christians must have heard, believed, and confessed this, this doctrine (teaching) is universal in the church. Read the rest of this post »