GraceConversation.org

by Greg Tidwell

In a comment to my post, John Mark Hicks wrote:

I think you mischaracterize our (Greg Taylor and myself) position in Down in the River to Pray. We actually state that salvation is both an event and a process (cf. pp. 254-55), and that the baptismal event is a moment where we encounter God, experience his grace and are assured of our salvation. Baptism is a means of grace; an event of grace, a moment when God does something salvific.

I also think your language is a bit imprecise in characterizing our position. While you write that we believe that “all who respond to the gospel in any way may be part of the family of God” (emphasis mine), it is more precise to say that we believe that God receives those who trust in Christ, submissively seek God from their hearts, and obey him according to their knowledge because God values mercy over sacrifice and faith over ritual. At the same time, God gives us ritual as means of encountering him, receiving his grace and concretely experiencing assurance. Ritual is God’s gift to his people but it should not be exalted over faith or nullify faith simply because the ritual was misunderstood, misapplied or mistaken by sincere believers whose hearts fully trust in Jesus.

John Mark is kind to offer this fuller explanation, and I trust he will accept my apology for any misunderstanding I have caused concerning his position.

by Greg Tidwell

Jay;

You have done a good job of summarizing my beliefs. You wrote:

To make sure we’re not talking past each other, we want to be sure we’re understanding you when you say “place one in danger of divine judgment.” We take the phrase to mean that God is patient with his children. Error does not necessarily immediately damn, but for certain errors (not all errors), God will at some point lose patience and damn. Moreover, we will generally not know when God has given up on someone, only that at some point he will.

If that’s your meaning, then we agree with the principle — we just want to be sure we’re understanding each other.

One emendation, however, is in order. It is my conviction that no error fits into the category of perpetual indulgence. Error is to be opposed, not accepted.

And yet, I am glad God is patient – as you rightly observed.

As a freshman at David Lipscomb College (as it was then) this point was driven home by Carrol Ellis in a Bible class. He opened the first day of class by asking all of the students who had ever taken anything that belonged to someone else to stand. He then asked all of the students who had ever told an untruth to join their classmates in standing. (we all, of course, were standing)

Dr. Ellis looked around the room with his head in his hands and cried out, “This school has put my in a room filled with thieves and liars!”

Do liars go to hell? Yes, the Bible says so. Then, what hope do I have of heaven? (Convicted liar, that I am) Left to my own devices, I have no hope. And in my depravity, I am not alone. “There is none righteous, no not one.”

Robert Hooper introduced me years ago to the work of Joseph De Maistre, who once observed: “I do not know what the heart of a rascal may be, but I know what is in the heart of an honest man; it is horrible.”

We must all, with humility, trust in God to save through the grace revealed in Jesus Christ.

I trust in the grace of God, and commend his grace to all for their salvation.

The grace of God, however, is not licence to embrace error and does not set aside our need to strive for precision obedience to the will of God.

by Greg Tidwell

Jay;

I admire your persistence and appreciate the passion for understanding which drives you forward. You have been gracious and patient in approaching our areas of disagreement and I am honored to discuss these matters with you, with Todd and with Phil.

Jay writes:

We cannot progress in this discussion until you’ve answered these questions. We could talk about what the Bible says about inerrancy and baptism, but that would hardly provide a comprehensive understanding of the doctrine of apostasy. Those two doctrines raise issues that are quite different from, say, the role of women and instrumental music. However, if you no longer consider the role of women and instrumental music to be issues that place one in danger of divine judgment, we need not concern ourselves further with those issues in this apostasy discussion.

I have repeatedly resisted parsing error into acceptable and nonacceptable categories. To put forward that something is contrary to the will of God, but is acceptable, would not be a way I will proceed.

At this point in our discussion (not wanting to be obdurate) let me say that, yes indeed, I feel disregarding the authority of God’s Word concerning male spiritual leadership, and I feel embracing unauthorized worship places one in danger of divine judgment.

However, if we are not in agreement as to the Inspiration and Authority of Scripture (Inerrancy) and if we are not in agreement on God’s Way of Salvation (How One Is a Christian) then I cannot see the possibility of progress on the many other issues which trouble us.

Further, while my beliefs are a matter of public record, I see little value in this forum of composing a syllabus of my particular doctrinal convictions.

by Jay Guin

What doctrinal errors place one in danger of divine judgment?

In “Not Man-made Checklists but a Scriptural Rationale,” we asked whether Greg stills holds to the teachings he expressed in the articles quoted in that post. In those articles, Greg specified several issues that place one in danger of divine judgment.

Greg responded with respect to two of the doctrines he considered in his articles,

What I am saying is that when one no longer believes in the complete truthfulness of God’s Word, or when one no longer believes in God’s Way of Salvation, then one stands in danger of divine judgment.

We appreciate Greg offering greater specifics on these two issues, but Greg hasn’t responded either way regarding four other issues that he said will cause one to have “a different religion” —

• Worship with an instrument, or
• Allow women to lead in worship, or
• Support parachurch organizations that engage in false teaching, or
• Allow parachurch organizations to drain resources from the congregation

Greg, do you contend that those four issues place one in danger of divine judgment? Or are you saying that of those doctrines mentioned in your articles, only the two — inerrancy and baptism — place one in danger of divine judgment?
(more…)

by Greg Tidwell

Jay has asked for clarification, writing:

Greg has published articles in which he lists certain doctrinal errors that damn (cause apostasy, cause one to fall away). I’m sure these aren’t intended as complete lists. And I’m not asking Greg to provide such a list. I just want to know: do these still reflect Greg’s beliefs?

Thus, in this post I want to reiterate that I believe a rejection of the biblical Way of Salvation is apostasy and places ones soul in jeopardy. (more…)

by Greg Tidwell

Jay has asked for clarification, writing:

Greg has published articles in which he lists certain doctrinal errors that damn (cause apostasy, cause one to fall away). I’m sure these aren’t intended as complete lists. And I’m not asking Greg to provide such a list. I just want to know: do these still reflect Greg’s beliefs?

Thus, in this post I want to reiterate that I believe a rejection of the authority of Scripture leads to apostasy and places ones soul in jeopardy. (more…)

by Greg Tidwell

I apologize for being so long away from our discussion. Picking up at Jay’s post “Not a Man-made List But a Scriptural Rationale,”  let’s attempt to move forward.

With a lawyer’s dexterity, Jay begins by providing a catalogue of conservative preachers whom he vilifies as composers of checklists. He proceeds to link me with this noble company and claims that I have produced a checklist to determine when a Christian falls into divine judgment.

While Jay’s assertions are rhetorically nimble, they suffer from a lack of accuracy. I take exception to his claims on two fronts. (more…)

If you check around the internet a bit, you’ll find that GraceConversation is developing a reputation for less-than-Christian comments. I think we deserve the criticism, and it’s my fault. You see, I urged the other participants to agree to set this site up without moderation, for a number of reasons. First, my experience over at OneInJesus.info has been good. I’ve very rarely had to moderate a commenter. Second, I thought it would be helpful for the four principals to hear what the audience was thinking unfiltered. Third, I’ve heard lots of complaints against moderation. Fourth, none of us has the time to pre-clear all the hundreds of comments. I was wrong.

Therefore, the four of us have agreed to a new policy: (more…)

I just received a note from Greg, explaining that he has several personal and church commitments coming up. He concludes,

Hopefully, I will be back in our discussion by the end of next week.

Just didn’t want you to wonder why I did not respond in a timely manner.

We all have commitments, and the arrangement among the four authors is that the schedule is therefore flexible.

In the meantime, I ask that those who are in sympathy with Greg’s views on apostasy post comments offering their own scriptural rationales for why one or more of these doctrinal errors cause a Christian to fall away.

You see, the goal here is not to “win.” The goal is to be faithful to God, and being faithful to God means finding the truth of his will. Therefore, I truly hope that the best possible case is presented in defense of his views. If he’s right, I want to be persuaded.

by Jay Guin

Greg writes,

My Progressive friends keep asking for a line to be drawn that will say exactly which error will send one to hell under what circumstances. I really don’t want to be offensive, but I believe they have fallen into legalism at this point. They really are using a “check list” approach that is dogmatic and contrary to a proper appreciation for the grace of God and our status as stewards accountable before our Lord and Master.

Really? You see, the thing is: I already have lists and lines of salvation aplenty. My bookshelves sag under the weight of checklists written by Daniel Sommer, David Lipscomb, H. Leo Boles, Thomas Warren, Bert Thompson, Goebel Music, etc., etc., etc. My conservative brothers have never been reluctant to draw salvation lines or offer checklists. They don’t agree with each other on just which doctrinal errors result in apostasy or why, but they do seem to agree on the drawing of lines and making of lists.

All I ask from Greg is the scriptural basis for his own published checklists.

Now, I admit to some uncertainty. Sometimes Greg sounds like he and I are in complete agreement. Other times, I’m not so sure. However, I know for a fact that as late as August 2007 we were not in agreement. So it seems only right to ask whether Greg has changed his mind since he published articles drawing lines that say certain errors will send one to hell. (more…)